You are relying on the book Wisdom of Solomon to make the case that Jesus is Satan this is problematic as the book is not included in Jewish or Modern Bibles and for a good reason, the book was written by a Jewish scholar familiar with Greek culture, likely in Alexandria, Egypt, during the Hellenistic period (between the 2nd century BCE and 1st century, the book was written in Greek, not Hebrew, and contains sophisticated Greek philosophical ideas and expressions.
raymond frantz
JoinedPosts by raymond frantz
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God or Satan?
by peacefulpete inthe theme of my recent comment in another thread demonstrated how in some circles the 'word/logos' had become understood to be implied within ot texts that mention an angel or destroyer (in the case of ex 12).
the comment got no response so i'll repost it now as a springboard for a further observation:.
here's another example of the extreme personification of the logos/word from the wisdom of solomon (approx.
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Why Did God Create Us?
by Sea Breeze injesus is the creator god, but why did he create us?
what say you?.
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raymond frantz
First of all Jesus didn't create man but God with the aid of Jesus,
IF YOU DONT BELIEVE in the Bible many theories have been offered over the years: evolution, ancient alien theory, panspermia etc. In that line of thought we have no purpose and no meaning as previous mentioned.
IF YOU BELIEVE in the Bible then the answer is quoted in Genesis 1:26-27: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky...’ So God created mankind in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.”
God is a Creator and created a being in his image to look after this planet because He can, like He created angels before that.
Now if you want to dig deeper, there are many rabbit holes you can follow and the following is just pure speculation based in Scripture. I believe one of the reasons we were created is for some of us, only the ones that get raptured, to replace Satan and 1/3 of the angels that fell from Grace.
While the Bible doesn’t explicitly state that humanity was created to replace fallen angels, several verses suggest that believers in Christ will occupy significant roles in God’s eternal kingdom. These roles may parallel or even surpass those held by angels before the fall:
Judges of Angels:1 Corinthians 6:3: “Do you not know that we will judge angels?”
This verse implies that redeemed humanity will have authority over angels in God’s eternal kingdom. It suggests a reversal of the hierarchy seen in creation, where angels initially held a superior role to humans.
Heavenly Worshipers:Revelation 7:9-10 describes a great multitude of redeemed humans worshiping God before His throne, a role previously associated with angels (e.g., Isaiah 6:3).
Adopted as Sons and Daughters:Hebrews 1:14 explains that angels are “ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation,” indicating that humanity, as heirs of salvation, has a unique and exalted status in God’s plan.
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It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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raymond frantz
Yes he has been on Joe Rogan's show too
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It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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raymond frantz
Billy Carson is having a "Lloyd Evans" reaction online at the moment, he got smoked by a Christian scholar and because he didn't like the way the debate went he served everyone a cease and desist letter and then threatened a lawsuit in a different country...everybody is laughing silly😄
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New here
by AdamCzarnobay ini left the organization in 2017.. was in several congregations in the north west of england.
i just wanted to say thank you to all of you that have posted on here over the years, it really helped me to see the truth about the organization.
i lurked here for many years under an anonymous login and then finally plucked up the courage to write my disassociation letter.. adam.
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raymond frantz
Welcome on board, North West of England too here, if you want to meet or facetime PM me
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Defend Your Borders or Listen to the Watchtower?
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/dnoww-4jfao?si=ehzmc5-gxqukgn7q.
with ww3 on the horizon the watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with stephen lett has the theme " why ancient israelites were allowed to go to war but as a christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " why the modern state of israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a western european or north american you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination?
so one of stephen lett's go to arguments is that christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where israelites had a mandate to occupy the holy land where as we gentile christians we don't.
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raymond frantz
@Duran
he Bible is clear there will be nation states in the Millennium:
Nations Will Exist to Worship the Lord
Revelation 21:24:
"The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it."
This verse describes the New Jerusalem but implies that nations and their leaders continue to exist, contributing their glory to God’s kingdom. It suggests a diversity of peoples and governance under Christ's rule.Isaiah 2:2-4:
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains... All nations will stream to it."
Nations are portrayed as distinct entities that come to worship God, reflecting their preserved identity and role.
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Defend Your Borders or Listen to the Watchtower?
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/dnoww-4jfao?si=ehzmc5-gxqukgn7q.
with ww3 on the horizon the watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with stephen lett has the theme " why ancient israelites were allowed to go to war but as a christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " why the modern state of israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a western european or north american you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination?
so one of stephen lett's go to arguments is that christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where israelites had a mandate to occupy the holy land where as we gentile christians we don't.
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raymond frantz
Duran , I agree with you, the Antichrist is God's punishment for mankind nevertheless his purpose post tower of Babel has been a world of borders and distinct national identities. I find nothing with that. I prefer a world where people are allowed to be part of their local national entity with distinct language ,history and culture, the alternative is the current mess we experience at the moment
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Defend Your Borders or Listen to the Watchtower?
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/dnoww-4jfao?si=ehzmc5-gxqukgn7q.
with ww3 on the horizon the watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with stephen lett has the theme " why ancient israelites were allowed to go to war but as a christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " why the modern state of israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a western european or north american you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination?
so one of stephen lett's go to arguments is that christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where israelites had a mandate to occupy the holy land where as we gentile christians we don't.
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raymond frantz
@Just a guy, I agree, so far they were fighting a proxy war, but rhe masks gave come off for good now
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Defend Your Borders or Listen to the Watchtower?
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/dnoww-4jfao?si=ehzmc5-gxqukgn7q.
with ww3 on the horizon the watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with stephen lett has the theme " why ancient israelites were allowed to go to war but as a christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " why the modern state of israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a western european or north american you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination?
so one of stephen lett's go to arguments is that christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where israelites had a mandate to occupy the holy land where as we gentile christians we don't.
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raymond frantz
I'm not quite sure what you mean? What is your ideal post and why?
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Defend Your Borders or Listen to the Watchtower?
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/dnoww-4jfao?si=ehzmc5-gxqukgn7q.
with ww3 on the horizon the watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with stephen lett has the theme " why ancient israelites were allowed to go to war but as a christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " why the modern state of israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a western european or north american you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination?
so one of stephen lett's go to arguments is that christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where israelites had a mandate to occupy the holy land where as we gentile christians we don't.
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raymond frantz
https://youtu.be/dNowW-4Jfao?si=ehzMc5-GXQUkgN7Q
With WW3 on the horizon the Watchtower is bringing out their best hits on the issue of neutrality and the latest instalment on jw.org with Stephen Lett has the theme " Why ancient Israelites were allowed to go to war but as a Christian you can't " or to paraphrase for a 2024 audience " Why the modern state of Israel is allowed all the nuclear weapons to defend their borders but you as a Western European or North American you aren't supposed to compliant against open border policies and uncontrolled illegal migration" Isn't that the exact same rhetoric or is it my imagination? So one of Stephen Lett's go to arguments is that Christians do not take up arms because we don't live in ancient times where Israelites had a mandate to occupy the Holy Land where as we Gentile Christians we don't. But I'm here to make the exact opposite argument using Scriptures (but before we do that, let’s see what our favourite jw clown has to say...)
So here are some verses that you won't find in the Watchtower publications to support my argument. The Bible makes it clear that God has established nations and their borders, and defending those borders is part of maintaining the order He set in place. Acts 17:26 states, “And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.” Notice, God didn’t just create people and let them roam freely without limits—He assigned nations their specific territories and boundaries. These aren’t arbitrary lines; they’re part of God’s divine arrangement.
Now, here’s where things get tricky. The Watchtower promotes a position of neutrality, insisting that Christians shouldn’t participate in any form of warfare, even if it means defending their homeland. But how does that align with God’s plan for nations to have and maintain their borders? After all, what good is a border if it’s left wide open or undefended? Romans 13:1-4, which they love to quote alot, gives governments the authority to maintain law and order, which would naturally include protecting their borders, right?: “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed.” Clearly, protecting a nation’s borders is part of the God-given role of governments, and it requires participation from their citizens.
Let’s not forget Nehemiah’s example. When the Israelites, came back from Babylon and were rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem, their enemies threatened to attack. Did Nehemiah tell everyone to throw up their hands in neutrality? Hardly. Instead, he told them in Nehemiah 4:14, *“Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”So I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Nehemiah understood that defending their territory was essential to preserving their identity and protecting their families. And guess what? God didn’t rebuke them for it.
But here’s the irony: The Watchtower historically took a strong stance against globalism,not anymore, warning about a “new world order” that seeks to erase borders and create one unified system, much like the Tower of Babel. Genesis 11:4 records the people’s rebellious intent: “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” God’s response? “So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth.” (Genesis 11:8). Clearly, God values diversity and distinct nations, not one centralized global society.
Yet, by promoting absolute neutrality, the Watchtower’s stance inadvertently aids this very globalist agenda that supposedly opposes. If nations can not defend their borders because their citizens refuse to participate, what’s left to stop a borderless, centralized system? It’s like locking the door to your house, but leaving the keys in the lock—it defeats the purpose.
Christians are called to be peacemakers, but that doesn’t mean passivity in the face of threats. The Bible shows that defending one’s homeland and borders can be both righteous and necessary. When God establishes nations and boundaries, He expects them to be maintained, not left undefended. By refusing any involvement in defending those borders, the Watchtower’s stance undermines the very order God has set in place. Surely, there’s room for Christians to support the preservation of what God has ordained without compromising their faith.
Now, having said that, if there was a WW3 in Europe tomorrow will I send my son to die in that war? Absolutely not, modern Western European countries and their North American counterparts have already been taken over by the same globalist elites that will use wars, famines and pestilences to bring about an end to borders and national identities for their precious New World Order. They can achieve that with the blood of their children not mine! So my advise is fo not listen to the Watchtower’s false narrative for neutrality be the master of your security and act in accordance to your local circumstances not those of Stephen Letts.